A very slight correction — my wife and I haven’t been “actively” threatened but there is a threatening feel to many of the people on Ellsworth, esp. weekend nights. There are some people — of all ages — who might just be in your way but to whom you feel comfortable saying, “Excuse me.” For others, the body language is, “Don’t mess with me, motherfucker.” Those are the people — a relatively small number, actually, but even a few can spoil the party — who need to be moved along. And the police are the only people who MIGHT impress them enough to comply with a request to get moving, or stop cursing and fighting.

The business people and govt. people who built SS to what it is (was?) say they’re working on a solution and understand it needs to be done quickly. Let’s hope they follow through.

Editor’s note: During the urban-district advisory committee’s meeting, Gilroy said he and his wife had been threatened, not that he felt threatened. Nonetheless, I appreciate his comments here. — JD (Jul 22, 2008)

Only two cops walk the beat? That is really outrageous, the County needs to find money to put more cops there. I’m not scared by the presence of police, I feel safer when I see them. Silver Spring needs to get with it or, as Mr. Gilroy said, one shot and it’s over. All of the hard work of revitalizing Silver Spring will fall apart with one very violent incident. Very disturbing that the County is playing games with Silver Spring’s economic future. Fire a few accountants on the County payroll in Rockville and get cops back on the street to make the area safe.

In addition to the immediate downtown area, there is another part of Ellsworth that has been a constant source of crime. The section immediately north of Cedar Street (near the park/library parking lot) has repeatedly been targeted by thugs ripping off women (usually walking alone at night).

On many occasions I’ve seen police cars parked there and have also read about the incidents in the blotter in the Gazette. This little block is VERY dark and there are no houses on either side of the street.

The last time I saw cop cars there the police officer told me another woman had been mugged. When I asked about getting a couple street lights his reply was basically “not my department…gotta call DPW (Department of Public Works)”.

Will it take a rape or God forbid the murder of someone fighting back to get the county to put up some lights? I agree with many posters on the SS blogs that the situation has become like a powder keg just waiting for an explosion. There won’t be large scale riots, but all it will take is one very serious crime on Ellsworth downtown and the whole party will come to a very quick halt. What a pity that will be.

Woodsider, that troublesome part of Ellsworth is right down the street from me, and while I’ve never heard anyone shouting for help, I do hear and sometimes see kids hanging out there late at night. Those kids might be okay, but then, they might also be in danger themselves.

As for getting more cops to patrol, I’m all for that, but if MoCo is suffering from a shortage of funds (like the rest of the nation), it might require tax increases to get more cops. I’m for that too, but plenty of people will oppose it.

What about a couple of streetlights? It is pitch black through there at night, while just a block up the street it’s nice and bright. Read the police blotter, you’ll see that crime is not rare in that stretch, screams for help or not.

Personally, I don’t think I’ve ever felt threatened by the crowds on Ellsworth. Annoyed, yes. Threatened, no.

However, I believe it would be nice to have a few more cops in uniform on that block, only because they keep everyone on their best behavior (or at least better behavior). It won’t end the swearing, but it’ll keep the volume down and put the rough play on ice.

I also think Silver Spring is feeling the pinch of its own success. Compared with other parts of the region, downtown Silver Spring is relatively safe — for kids in the fountain, for couples dining at Eggspectation, and for loud teens kicking it outside Chipotle’s.

“If you build it [safe], they will come.”

Woodsider, don’t misunderstand: just because I don’t hear screams doesn’t mean that I disagree with you. It is a dark stretch, with plenty of hiding places for very bad things to happen to people. More lights would help, but it is sandwiched between a big empty park and a big empty parking lot, with houses set far back and up hills. The wisest thing is to avoid walking down that stretch at night, even if it means going a few blocks out of one’s way.

Why should any of us have to “avoid walking down that stretch at night?” What’s the point of having a “walkable downtown” if we cant’ WALK to it because thugs rule the streets — and all because a relatively small number of people think the rights of the thugs to roam and say what they want need to be protected even if the rest of us have to drive 5 blocks to get a cup of coffee?

I don’t know, I must be either really lucky, totally oblivious, or simply have a different tolerance threshold than others who’ve been complaining about the atmosphere of DTSS and the Majestic here and on other blogs. And that’s not meant to discount or challenge your perceptions or experiences. I’m just saying my experiences have been quite different, and I’m down there all the time, with my wife and kid. I don’t feel threatened there, primarily because there are always so many people around. Threatening, to me, are the creepy, empty streets of Fenton Street Village at night. But the scene along Ellsworth–even with the loitering teens–I welcome it.

Brent, the answer to your question is, we shouldn’t have to, but that’s the world we live in. Some parts of the world are more dangerous than others, and always will be, and it’s prudent to avoid them.

In this case you’ve got a long, deserted stretch of road with open spaces filled with hiding places on either side. Under any circumstances, that is not a safe place to walk through at night, be it here in Silver Spring or anywhere else. Whether it’s groups of thugs, or one lone psycho, you’re more likely to be attacked in this kind of place than in better lit, more populated places.

Springvale Roader, I didn’t take it as disagreement so no worries. I do agree with Brent, we should NOT have to take alternate routes (down Colesville? hmmm…cars jumping curbs, buses, trucks)…we should lobby the Department of Public Works to light up that stretch of Ellsworth even brighter than near the surrounding houses. No one will complain…the area is bordered by a library parking lot & public park on one side, and the chelsea school field on the other.

Like others, I’ve never felt threatened downtown either, just irritated at the VERY loud obnoxious groups. I’m no old fart myself and think kids should be able to have a good time, but sometimes it’s just nuts down there.

Jennifer, you hit the nail on the head “if you build it, they will come”. Now what?

Woodsider, we’re definitely in agreement, though in the end I equate people (even people inside houses) with more safety, and that’s the problem on that part of Ellsworth, even with more lights. Still, I’m all for more lights since criminals, like cockroaches, prefer dark places.

And I agree that it’s not the threat factor so much as the sheer obnoxiousness factor that makes DTSS such a drag to walk through. It’s like being caught in a Quentin Tarantino script.

Wait a minute … Ellsworth is where private security guards go around telling people what they can and can’t photograph. Apparently they are allowed to do this because the developer “runs” the property just like a shopping mall developer. So why doesn’t the company making so much money from the crowds there be held accountable to unruly crowds, loitering, etc.? I’ve seen a drunken man pushing people out of his way, yelling obscenities, WALKING RIGHT PAST rent-a-cops. Am I wrong here? Isn’t the developer who profits from the land use at least partially responsible for the safety of the customers there?

Thanks for your comment, Chris.

In an memo distributed at last week’s urban-district advisory committee, Jennifer Nettles, the shopping center’s property manager, said the company was working on a few things:

“About two months ago, we received word that there was talk within communities about the ‘teenagers’ in Downtown Silver Spring. These concerns stemmed from perception issues, as well as a potential safety perspective. …

We immediately brought in a new director of security (who most recently served in this role at Union Station and the Shops at Georgetown Park in DC — both properties with similar types of issues). Under direction of our new director of security, we weeded out security staff and brought in more customer-friendly guards, have completed interactive training and continue to be involved in community outreach.

Once our new staff was in place, we implemented an ‘action team’ consisting of Downtown Silver Spring, City Place mall, Silver Spring regional center, Montgomery County police and council member representatives with the goal of providing a safe environment …

… [W]e’ve created new programs and procedures and we created an action list: an ongoing list of items that we feel need to be addressed, mainly focusing on legal aspects and rights of citizens within a public setting. This is still a work in process [sic] … .

Glean from that what you will.

It’s kind of funny, though, that on one hand — the First Amendment-loving hand — some want DTSS to be treated as public property. On the other hand — perhaps the one that likes the Sixth Amendment more than the First — some want security measures to be handled as if the place were private property.

What’s the happy medium?

There’s almost always going to be a problem with teens testing their limits. And as with any watering hole in the wild, where the herd gathers, predators will take up station looking for stragglers.

All you can really do is set traps for the predators, and make sure that someone follows the kids around pointing out to them where the limits are.

Editor’s note: Maybe we can make “To Catch a Pickpocket” the next big TV show on County Cable Six. Oh, and I agree with your assessment. — JD (Jul 22, 2008)

Jennifer,

Thank you for your response. My argument would be that there’s a big difference between hassling a guy with a camera and pretending not to notice some drunk shoving people aside and yelling obscenities. I agree that photographers ought to be about to take pictures, and I have no problem with teens hanging out and having fun. I was a teen myself once, only they didn’t have movie theaters then (we sat around waiting for Ceasers to be murdered).

While people’s threat perception differs wildly, the scene I saw was on in which a man holding a guitar case was shoving kids and adults alike. He grabbed one young girl on the breast and pushed her away. I saw fear on a lot of faces and was getting ready for a confrontation myself when he veered away. But while he was pushing people aside and yelling the worst obscenities, the rent-a-cops pretended not to notice. Here I am getting ready to face this guy, and the paid professionals were sipping cokes.

That said, this is a tricky situation and will not be resolved by one group, or one group’s perceptions. It might help if we bring the armed and ready guards, the police, some kids, and some family members into a joint discussion about what right, wrong, just OK, and when it is time to take action.

But please let it not be one of those cops on a silly Segway…. I may have to join the other side if so.

The other night in front of the Majestic there were some plain clothed men telling teens crowding the doors to disperse. (It was very tightly packed…you could barely get in the door….but it WAS the opening of The Dark Knight) They were just hanging out, speaking loudly and cussing…I can’t say I didn’t do the same when I was that age…

However, I think just keeping them from all congealing around the Majestic and such will do much for the pleasantness of the area. Teens being obnoxious is all part of the game, but keeping them from just ‘hanging out’ in clumps will prevent that mob-mentality of ‘let me act foolish to impress this girl.’ Simple crowd control is needed.

This is a generational divide. The younger and newer residents in Silver Spring are more comfortable in the Ellsworth’s urban environment than the older residents.

I was just downtown and talked to some business people. Apparently, the Fuddrucker’s staff found people shooting up in their restroom last week. Does that sound like teenagers just doing what they do, as some people have defined the situation? And the restaurant people on the Fuddrucker’s block told me of kids throwing objects from atop the parking garage — apparently, the garage is not under police jurisdiction, so it doesn’t get patrolled.

Thanks to all for your comments.

John wrote:

“This is a generational divide. The younger and newer residents in Silver Spring are more comfortable in the Ellsworth’s urban environment than the older residents.”

I agree to some extent. Crowds are definitely a part of urban living, and I can see where those who bought into Silver Spring’s more suburban side would feel threatened by Ellsworth’s activity. And of course, for every obnoxious and annoying teenager, there’s a crabby old fart wagging a finger at him/her.

However, some of the merrymakers on Ellsworth probably need to keep themselves in check. While swearing at the top of one’s lungs isn’t illegal, fondling women and shoving people are crimes. They’re called sexual assault and assault. If these things are happening (emphasis on “if”, as the evidence is anecdotal right now), then victims and witnesses should alert the police immediately.

Brent wrote:

“I was just downtown and talked to some business people. Apparently, the Fuddrucker’s staff found people shooting up in their restroom last week. Does that sound like teenagers just doing what they do, as some people have defined the situation? And the restaurant people on the Fuddrucker’s block told me of kids throwing objects from atop the parking garage — apparently, the garage is not under police jurisdiction, so it doesn’t get patrolled.”

Does that sound like teenagers just doing what they do? Yes, that’s exactly what teens do — they push their limits until someone pushes back. I don’t think there’s anyone on the blogosphere who hasn’t done stupid, even illegal things when they were younger. Some still do stupid, illegal things as adults.

And let’s not fool ourselves into believing that bad, illegal behavior is limited to someone else’s kids. Silver Spring’s kids are just as susceptible to the lures of hard drugs and heavy drinking as any other kid. But it takes diligent adults — parents, neighbors, and the police if necessary — to keep kids on the right track, and to help kids on the wrong track.

Jennifer, keep in mind that sometimes the only thing we old farts have at our disposal to help keep kids on the right track is our waving fingers. And does anyone ever listen? No, I work my fingers to the bone, and does anyone listen. To heck in a handcart, that’s where the world’s headed, yadda yadda yadda.

But seriously, folks. I could tell you some stories and will spare you folks because probably you’re all too young to have your hair turn grey. If it’s not kids on meth in the bathrooms of Fuddruckers it’s hillbillies on oxy at their produce stand in Poolesville. And who knows what weirdness lurks in the buggies of the Amish, contraband iPods in their bonnets I guess. I can only wonder what they might be listening to that would explain the relentless cheerfulness.

As for tossing rocks off of parking garages, believe it or not there is an astonishingly high penalty under Federal law for “throwing objects from high places”. As I recall, this dates from some really horrific incident in the 1970s when some kids dropped a manhole cover off of one of the overpasses on the Dulles Toll Road and hit a car with it, decapitating the driver. I don’t know if it would be entirely appropriate to try to apply this to kids being stupid, then again, a fine of a hundred-thousand dollars will get your attention.

Look: I saw on the news the other day that last year had the highest number of births on record, surpassing the peak of the Baby Boom. Whatever we do now will set the groundwork for a coming day when we don’t have to worry about having enough younger folks to keep Social Security solvent. What we do need to do is to try to raise a generation that doesn’t need to be policed, and then to raise a generation that will police itself. Tough task, eh? So maybe the sooner we get started the better the result as time goes on.

Excuse me, I seem to have forgotten where I put my cane, I’ll go dodder off now and putter around after it…

Okay, we know there is a problem, perceived or real. Now, what can be done about it? Should we be contacting MoCo? I’m in line with those that think that one shooting will end Silver Spring’s resurgence of late, and having been downtown things look a bit nuts (especially after hearing that only 2 cops are assigned to that area, I really think that’s incredibly shocking and dangerous.) so I rather not sit back and wait for it to happen. Anyone have ideas to get the attention of the powers that be?

Wanna get in touch with the powers that be? Holler at these people:

The third-district PD
County Council
MoCo exec Ike Leggett

Ooh, just feel that empowerment pulsing through your veins!

It’s totally unacceptable that DTSS be anything other than an unqualified success, lauded by all and with no detractors.

Thus, expect to be ignored… until they get maybe hundreds of very similar complaints.

By the time that happens and they start paying attention, it might very well be too late.

Or perhaps you might expect “solutions” that seem to be exactly the opposite of what’s needed.

For example, their approach to traffic congestion in Aspen Hill is to build traffic islands that narrow the road and force dangerous merge conditions.

I don’t understand. Study after study has shown that a visible police presence is a strong deterrent to crime. It is money well spent. MoCo (we the people) has to figure out how to pay for it.
Please make use of the contacts that Jennifer has provided above. I have.

Well, I must report this — I just spoke with a young woman in Valerie Ervin’s office. She was polite and listened to my concerns — but then, she said she’s been in downtown SS on weekend evenings and not seen or heard any of this kind of thing. It’s crowded, yes, and there are people hanging around with nothing to do — but she’s not heard offensive language or seen fights or any of the other stuff that I and a lot of other people are complaining about. She didn’t dismiss my concern, but it was clear she hasn’t seen any evidence of this

Maybe it IS just a PERCEPTION among some of us that this is happening. Other people clearly are not seeing or hearing it, and they are there at the same time we are.

Brent, if you witness a fight or hear foul language, that’s not perception. That’s fact, and I can’t really argue with that. On the other hand, if you feel threatened or offended, that’s perception. Some share that perception; others don’t.

Like the young woman at council member Ervin’s office, I’ve never witnessed a fight on Ellsworth. And I don’t hear the swearing above my own. I perceive the place to be loud and annoying, and just like Times Square, I believe one must mind his or her personal belongings when strolling through there. However, I don’t feel threatened.

While I don’t share your perceptions, I am glad that you’ve taken your concerns to our elected officials. They work for all of us, so make ‘em earn their pay.

I’m with Jennifer on this. I don’t ever feel threatened in DTSS. In fact I feel the opposite because (a) no one seems very interested in me, and (b) there are hundreds of people there which is just as good as a police presence in deterring crime. Of course I am also not antagonizing anyone with the wag of my judgmental finger. Live and let live. People don’t like to be looked down upon and judged. If you start wagging your finger at people expect to get some push back.

Trekkie, you’re right in that foul language is annoying but not a crime — though still, if I was a parent of small kids, I’d be upset if they were surrounded by frequent and loud obscenity.

On the other hand, we’ve had enough reports of women being groped and harassed, and of parents of young women being threatened when they speak out in defense of their kids, that there is a problem beyond perception. And while I’ve yet to see a fight, I’ve seen the aftermath of fights — cops, maybe firefighters — which I later learned were because of fights.

Okay, looking back at what another poster said on another blog/comment site on this subject.

Supposing you’re the parent of a 13-YO girl (I am not, I’m just putting myself in their shoes) and someone comes up and makes a rude comment to your child, and you say something fairly mellow like “please don’t talk about my child like that” and the person erupts into obscenity and threats…

Tell me, where’s the “finger wagging”. That’s a totally reasonable request coming from the parent of a minor female. And someone please tell me how screaming obscenities and threatening violence is “push back”. Or, better said, try justifying that. As in, try justifying it as if it’s not only to be expected, but somehow proper.

Because if the prevailing standard of society is that young ladies accompanied by their parents will get groped or remarked on in a clearly disrespectful way, and the parents should expect to submit to it without comment, and expect to be made to be sorry if they do comment, that society with that prevailing standard needs to be shut down. In my humble opinion.

To conclude, “push back” my @55.

Editor’s note: During the urban-district advisory committee’s meeting, Gilroy said he and his wife had been threatened, not that he felt threatened. Nonetheless, I appreciate his comments here. — JD

I was there and that is what Mr. Gilroy stated.- Carmen Camacho

Let me clarify again; if I used the words “have been threatened,” that was not what I intended. My point was it is a “threatening environment.” That it’s no fun to walk through crowds of people who are yelling epithets at each other, or to look at someone and realize, “I better not ask this guy to move out of my way. Better that I go around.”

But is the point here that a “threatening environment” is not really worth a remedy? Should I wait until somebody says, “I’m gonna kill you, you piece of shit!” (or maybe attacks me) before the problem is real?

I grew up in a pretty tough neighborhood. I’m probably more accustomed to this sort of anti-social behavior than a lot of people in SS who grew up in middle class neighborhoods. That doesn’t mean I like it. And where as, in my youth, I might have said, “Move your ass out of my way!,” I no longer WANT to have to do that.

The more I read people’s comments — here and elsewhere — the more I realize that a significant number of people in SS don’t see anything wrong with Ellsworth Drive as it is (well, they don’t like the chain stores and restaurants, but they have no problem with people’s behavior — it’s what they expect in a downtown area and in fact they welcome it as a slice of real life).

I have been making it a point to just drive through DTSS on my way downtown because I figured it was probably just another Giant Size Chucky Cheeze with extra crunchy chain restaurants and probably no decent gyros from respectable greeks like you used to find in downtown Silver Spring. Can I have an extra helping of Discover Channel with my Fridays thanks. I always figured that security would take one look at my goofy self and escort me out of dodge as being rude, crude, socially unacceptable, physically unattractive, and with a bad credit rating. However, now it seems from the comments here that I might be outright too darn upscale and whitebread for this scene.

So how can a person sort out unsubstantiated allegations from descriptions that are based in solid reality but expressed with lots of hyperbole? I guess that a recon mission is called for and nothing else will do. Of course, now that I have announced this, they’ll be lookin’ for me down there. And when they find me, I hope the County Council is there personally on a mission and that people will be looking at me, not at the lawmakers. If it’s as bad as they say, I don’t guess I would mind getting taken for bad through no fault of my own as long as it serves as a reality check. And if all turns out to be well and good, I guess everyone benefits. Then again, if I’m standing around looking like I am not favorably impressed and some teen fool from 7th and Harvard NW wants to walk all up and down my a55 for having the audacity to pay attention, maybe someone will notice that my discomfiture prefaces the disinvestment in DTSS of a lot of hardcore moneybags, let’s all see how that works out.

I am the statistically average MoCo taxpayer, in a lot of ways. Think of me as security, not the guys with the clubs, but the “secret shopper”. If the store sucks or is a star, I’ll be the one to notice. You all ought to look at yourselves in the same way. If management isn’t reading these blogs and adjusting policy thereby — assuming we report honestly and completely — management needs to hire a new polling and customer-satisfaction firm. So let’s all go down there and see how it works, and see whether management has got on top of these issues or whether management is asleep at the wheel.

So, when are we most likely to see the bad side? Let’s all be then and there.

And assuming we live, blog about it.

Brent, I don’t think anyone is saying that unacceptable behavior is “welcome as a slice of real life,” as you say. However, there are different interpretations as to what “unacceptable” is. To me, swearing is acceptable. In fact, it’s my first language.

I also feel the crowds on Ellsworth do not create a “threatening environment”, as you feel. It’s an incredibly annoying environment, but not threatening. I’ve never had anyone there refuse to move aside when I say, “Excuse me.” And I say this as a woman who stands 4 feet 11 inches tall.

And as far as being threatened with bodily harm, the choices are simple: Fight or flight. I won’t say what one should or shouldn’t do if found in that situation, and I’m not saying it’s right for someone to pick a fight over nothing. But I realize that I can’t control every element of my environment. I can only control what I do (or don’t do).

Also, Thomas Hardman wrote:

“Someone please tell me how screaming obscenities and threatening violence is ‘push back’. “

That’s not “push back”. That’s “push”. I believe people (and not just kids) will push the boundaries of what’s acceptable whenever possible, and whenever it suits their needs. If we’re lucky, it’s the conscience or a sense of decency — and not the police — that pushes back. It doesn’t always work out that way, but that’s why we have 9-1-1.

Incidentally, if one does feel threatened anywhere in downtown Silver Spring, the Red Shirt team can escort you to your car, or even to your home if you live in the central business district. Keep the number on speed dial if you must: (240) 876-2911. If you’re extra nice, they may let you ride on the back of their Segway.

And if you really feel threatened or are actually faced with the prospect of “kill or be killed”, call the police.

Mr. Brent, this sounds to me as you have more of an issue with “certain people”.

Tanish, I don’t think Brent has a problem with black people. I think he, like most everyone else, has a problem with people who curse loudly and often regardless of who is around, which is inconsiderate, who defiantly jaywalk and stare down drivers, and who actively harass and threaten people, which among other things is illegal.

In this area, is a lot of that behavior, and more serious crimes, done by black kids, mostly young black men? Yes. It’s not racist to point that out. That doesn’t mean they do it because they’re black, which would be a racist belief. They do it because of who they are as individuals.

Tanisha: To say I’m offended by that insinuation is far more than an understatement. I do not have a “problem” with anyone of any color — or religion, or whatever — because of what they are, either by birth or by choice. I would hope they would not have a problem with me on the same counts.

I have a problem with obnoxious behavior. Period.

Welcome to the conversation, Tanisha. Here are my thoughts:

Humans are usually apprehensive of the unknown or unfamiliar. For example, babies and toddlers are totally alien to me. (I grew up in a small family and have no kids of my own.) I don’t hate small children, but I am a nervous wreck when I’m around them. It’s a personal hang-up and admittedly my problem.

I believe it’s a similar situation with people who are unfamiliar with, well, other people — of different colors, incomes, ages, genders and sexual orientations, physical disabilities, etc. Some purple people get nervous around polka-dotted people because they perceive a difference. It’s a gut reaction and completely irrational, but there it is.

But if Purple feels threatened by Polka Dot, then that’s on Purple — it shouldn’t be Polka Dot’s problem. And if Purple just hates Polka Dots in general, then fuck Purple.

Of course, if Polka Dot is picking pockets or threatening to kick someone’s ass, then Purple, Plaid and Pinstripe need to call the cops on Polka Dot.

Ultimately, I believe people can control only what they as individuals think, feel and do. Brent can’t control what others on Ellsworth Drive say and do — and he shouldn’t have to. Likewise, I can’t control how Brent feels about others on Ellsworth. Frankly, that’s something he has to deal with.

Wow, Jennifer. You’ve met me once, briefly, and really know nothing about me. But you’re making assumptions about my background, the kinds of people I’ve been around (or not been around, you seem to think) in my life, my likes and dislikes — all, apparently, because you don’t share my view of things downtown. You hold a set of prejudices, and now you’ve fit me comfortably into one of them without knowing anything substantial about me, where I come from, what I’ve done in my life or anything. I guess you just proved your own point — you’re uncomfortable because you don’t know me, and having someone you don’t know take a differing viewpoint is unsettling to you.

Editor’s note: Alas, you finally get my point! So how does it feel to be prejudged? — JD (Jul 25, 2008)

“I believe people can control only what they as individuals think, feel and do. Brent can’t control what others on Ellsworth Drive say and do — and he shouldn’t have to. Likewise, I can’t control how Brent feels about others on Ellsworth. Frankly, that’s something he has to deal with.”

Everybody take a deep breath and count to ten. Who cares about perception and what someone thinks, or how they feel about certain people. Facts are facts. The bottom line is that kids are running wild on most nights downtown, no not during the day, but at night. This isn’t a perception, it’s a fact. The reason this is a problem? Silver Spring is an urban environment on an economic resurgence, if you let behavior get out of control, people will stop coming (except teens who don’t spend nearly as much money supporting the businesses as adults do) and downtown’s success will fail.

Solution? Up the police presence, stop letting small crimes go (i.e. jaywalking, aggressive behavior, akin to the broken windows theory that worked so well in NYC, though we of course come nowhere near the problems the city had) and the inappropriate behavior will, eventually, stop. The situation is not entirely out of control, but there is an intimidation factor that exists when and where large groups of young people (black white purple orange whatever) scream and yell without consequence. Again, this is simple fact.

All due respect, JG, but that is indeed a textbook “perception.” A fact is: guy got mugged; woman got felt up on the street; crime is up x%. But “kids are running wild on most nights,” that’s how you see it, which is absolutely your right. But that doesn’t make it a fact.

A lot of us who were there in the pre-redevelopment days remember when people used to get off the bus and spark crack pipes right in front of the police substation in the old shopping center. I also got the “lift my shirt so you can see what’s in my waistband” treatment a couple of times. On both occasions, the gun stayed put; thank goodness.

The fact is that Downtown SS has a long history of bold antisocial behavior. Those of us who lived through the ’80s and ’90s in SS have now put up with multiple decades of being cussed at, followed, threatened and harassed.

Arguably, things have gotten better. But I think a lot of people were expecting the redevelopment would bring more tangible, and rapid, improvements to both the reality and perceptions of safety in downtown. Instead, the improvements have been gradual and the increase in the volume of people coming into downtown (because there is actually something to do aside from walk around City Place) has exacerbated both the perception and the reality of problems with public safety.

But, in the end, the only difference between now and 1995 is that today if someone did attack me, there’d be a better chance of having a witness. Nothing more.

Most of the kids I have seen are fairly well-behaved. I get annoyed when kids are yelling at the top of their lungs or shouting obscenities. But seriously, this kind of behavior doesn’t bother ME much. I cuss all of the time and use rated NC17 language in public but I don’t give a shit anyway–so writes a 37 year old male adult.

What really bothers me is the potential harm to businesses along the Ellsworth corridor. Local Silver Springers with disposable income are completely avoiding that area. This means the restauranteurs and the retailers are losing money because people can’t deal with the crowds of teens on the street. You better believe the businesses are beginning to feel the pinch. Have you been to Borders recently? Not exactly hopping with customers anymore.

I support a stronger police presence so the public can feel secure shopping and dining in DTSS again.

But look, most of the kids come from shitty neighborhoods of northeast DC and PG county. They have no where to go for entertainment and hanging out on weekends. Silver Spring is cursed and blessed to have a Metro rail station and bus terminal for easy access from other communities. Hanging out in DTSS is the closest thing for escape with these kids. Think how dangerous it is for groups of teens to hang out in the Shaw or Trinidad neighborhoods of DC. Have you seen how dark and scary Georgia Ave. is in some parts of the District? And frankly, I would rather see these kids in Silver Spring enjoying time with friends and sweethearts than joining street gangs and selling smack on the street. Yes, the demographic is overwhelmingly black and some Hispanic. But bad behavior comes from all races and ethnicities. Many of the troublemakers hanging out near the Majestic had lousy parenting and poor influences. There is nothing racial about bad parenting or peer pressure.

I love Silver Spring for its diversity and I don’t want to see this go away.

Let’s get a grip we are in an urban setting SHIT happens. I travel to Miami, Atlanta, Philly, Vegas are they crime free? What urban setting is? If you see a crime happen call security or the cops. Evidently, some here “feel” threaten - well if you feel that way go hang out somewhere else. I frequent Ellsworth- yes some young people (I’m 26) act STUPID- that is not a crime.

Someone please correct me on this, but when people here are talking about “kids”, do they mean “people under 18 only” or are they talking about the 13-17-YO set, or is this more generically about people more-or-less from mayeb 15-25 or so? Really, it makes a lot of difference to the conversation to sort out that sort of thing.

Now, if we’re talking about young people of an age where they’re expected to at least start to know better — let’s say the 15-25-ish set — this is where you start drawing a line between what’s “stupid” and what’s “out of line”. If it’s a bunch of HS sophomores and juniors calling each other names and getting into some school spirit type rivalries, that’s one thing. If it’s guys and gals who are old enough and big enough to be in the military, that’s another thing. So I am guessing that the real concern here isn’t with “kids”, it’s with “young adults”.

Left to their own devices, frequently young adults develop their own peer group “norms” which usually lie mostly within the bound of what’s acceptable even to nuclear family units out for some shopping or off to see a film. Yet commonly enough, those clique or class norms do get outside the bounds. The real problem is that a lot of young men are pretty much out to celebrate their testosterone intoxication (been there, done that) and that means that for these guys, anything female of remotely comparable age gets a come-on and/or catcalls and anything male outside of their group gets catcalls and/or a challenge.

Insofar as it’s just about impossible for the young men from different groups to be in the same space without a certain amount of challenge going on — at least at the initial encounter — probably all that’s needed is for some cooler heads to be in a position to head ‘em off at the pass before they get into danger territory.

Of course, the worst sort of challenge is when someone acts stupid; it’s the duty of his companions (with whom pecking order is already established) to get him to chill out. When they won’t, basically the whole group is placing themselves outside of the common norms accepted by everyone else. And of course someone outside of their group has to take on the role that was abnegated by the companions. That usually comes across to the person acting stupid as a challenge and his companions will usually support him. That is when “stupid” becomes “violence” and although “stupid” isn’t a crime, I defy almost anyone to think back through their life and find an instance where they know the history of some violent act, and find that it didn’t start with someone being “stupid’: that is, acting the fool in a crowd of friends who ought to know enough to shut them down.

No, I am not saying we need the IQ Police out there dismissing everyone who isn’t a rocket scientist. But there’s one thing any officer trained for crowd control ought to recognize, and that’s how to tell when people are about to launch themselves on the trajectory from “in error” to “stupid” to “startin’ something” to “in deep 5hit”. .Whether they’re 15 or 25, probably all that needs to happen to stop problems is to have someone in authority say “stand at ease” and if they won’t, convince them there are other places which are a lot more suitable for them to be.

Of course, if everyone’s mostly concerned with the 15-18 set or somesuch, sorry, whatever, never mind.

It’s not just a “perception”, or a product of prejudice, when one is crudely propositioned and then directly threatened, as some of us have been.

DTSS will never really turn around until we stop all the ghetto trash coming in from DC and PG to commit crimes. And everyone knows it’s true. We need more cops, and we need them now.

I was once behind a couple of women in line at the Safeway in DTSS (about a year ago.) One of them said to the other, “You don’t wanna get arrested in Silver Spring - I spent one night in the jail on Sligo and I never wanna do dat no mo’!” THIS is the reputation we need for Silver Spring. And unfortunately, with fewer cops and security in DTSS, we’re losing that reputation.

I’ve definitely noticed a deterioration between last summer and this summer. I’ve had lots of young black guys in DTSS call me “faggot” or “honky” as I walk by, even in the middle of large crowds on Ellsworth. In March or April, I saw a group of 10 kids engaged in a full-on team fistfight (think West Side Story) on Ellsworth at 3 in the afternoon. I saw a group of maybe 10 adolescent girls getting into a screaming catfight in front of the Chick Fil-A, and one of them was *pregnant*. And I don’t even spend all that much time in DTSS - my social life is in the District.

There is one demographic causing trouble for everybody in Silver Spring. They need to be controlled and removed.

And before everyone starts calling me a racist, I live in DTSS, and many of my neighbors are A-A. They are not the problem. The problem is the DC and PG trash that comes into SS, not the residents. The throngs of thugs on weekend nights invariably move in a straight line between the Metro, through the shortcut in the Panera block of shops to Ellsworth, and down to the Chick Fil-A and Fuddruckers. They’re entering our community by transit for the sole purpose of committing crimes and harrassing residents. Put some more police presence out there, and the problem will be greatly mitigated.